[OOC] Return to the Rusty Rat

[Toot]

I'm not sure I'm getting what you're saying.  I see nothing that would keep Toot from riding the Unicorn.  The circle only keeps non good SUMMONED creatures out (Toot is a real creature) and the Protection from Evil effect only wards against attacks from evil creatures.  Toot's not Evil, he's neutral.  That's one problem with these protection from good/evil/chaos/law spells is that they never effect true neutral characters. 

My concern was with the Neutral SUMMONED Elementals so they would be effected by the circle.

RE the Unnatural Presence:  Yeah I don't think the spell would protect against the SU ability either.  But that pretty much means that there is no way of stopping the ability unless Boo turns into a Magical Beast but if he changed his type, he wouldn't want to be my Animal Companion anymore.  Which is kind of silly because, if I've always been nice to my Bear why would he suddenly think, "Welp... I know you've fed me, protected and healed me, been my best friend and we had a mutually beneficial partnership that has made me a more powerful and capable animal, but Eff ya, I'm going home."   

[DM Surranó]

Yeah I understood that you referred to the elementals as summoned nongood creatures. When I wrote the issue with Toot and the unicorn I was more than exhausted last night and realised the word "summoned" skipped my logic while I was under the hot shower. That leaves but one thing about unicorns; their picky taste when it comes to accepting riders... not a rules-thing, more like a role-thing (I believe it was kind of a rule in AD&D 2Ed at least) and surely a summoned unicorn has no way to say no to the summoner...

For the records. Summoned creatures are real as well. And so, Toot as a jermlaine can be summoned accidentally by anyone who knows how to summon a jermlaine. Probably from another plane.

[Torin]

Web (Ex)
Both types of monstrous spiders often wait in their webs or in trees, then lower themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size. Web-spinners can throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst it with a Strength check. Both are standard actions whose DCs are given in the table below. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.
Web-spinners often create sheets of sticky webbing from 5 to 60 feet square, depending on the size of the spider. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot section has the hit points given on the table, and sheet webs have damage reduction 5/—.
A monstrous spider can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.

Net
A net is used to entangle enemies. When you throw a net, you make a ranged touch attack against your target. A net’s maximum range is 10feet. If you hit, the target is entangled. An entangled creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a DC 15 Concentration check or be unable to cast the spell.

Entangled
The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge , and takes a -2 penalty on all  attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.

Can you move by half speed while you are entangled by a spider web (as a move action)?
Can you take a 5-foot step action?
Can you crawling/rolling 5 feet as a move action?

[DM Surranó]

Good questions. Let me add a two more quotes (and by the way let's restrict quotes like these to the relevant parts to help understand the point)

An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The net has 5 hit points and can be burst with a DC 25 Strength check (also a full-round action).

Compared to spider's net, where EA DC, break DC and HP are functions of spider size, this is pretty much different so I take the statement "similar to an attack with a net" in the spider's description with a grain of salt.

... causing them to become entangled. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check.

In my interpretation while the spell refers to the same named condition ("entangled") it imposes more severe restrictions on movement. Namely, you must spend a full round action to make the strength or EA check [b]and move half your speed (in case of Torin, 10 feet) and the check must be repeated every round. Add to this that it has a huge area of effect and long range, all in for a first level spell.

Tossing game balance questions in the side lane for a moment, let's compare the three things.

As a side note, once again, movement specified for races (e.g. 20 for dwarves) is distance in feet, not speed in feet per unit of time.
Your default speed is the walk speed which is your movement per round. Your battle speed is the hustle speed which is your movement per move action.
So to avoid ambiguity I will use "speed" for "feet per unit of time" and "distance" for "feet". Numerical figures are given based on Torin's movement of 20.

An entangle spell is definitely an immobile barrier in space (read: all three dimensions) and thus it impedes your movement more but you cannot break free completely until you reach the edge of the area. If you are not entangled then you can move at half speed (effectively treat it as difficult terrain).

A net is thrown at you and unless tethered you can move with it... somewhat. It's harder to escape than a spider web and harder to break free than the Entangle spell but it has HP so you can cut your way out. It is definitely not "anchored to an immobile object" so you can move but then the entangling object moves with you so you remain entangled. While I haven't done historical evaluations for me it seems that you can move like on difficult terrain.

A spider's web doesn't have roots but it's sticky and clings pretty well to stone, hence the idea of sheet webbing on floors. So I would say it's pretty much "anchored to an immobile object", i.e. the floor. So I would say it's pretty much like the spell and not the weapon, except that EA DC, Str DC and HP vary and that you can actually break free.

So to summarise:
Escape / Break free - Entangle: full round temporary, Net: full round, Web: standard action
Cut through - Entangle: no, Net: yes, Web: yes
Move - Entangle: half walk speed (walk speed if saved), Net: walk speed, Web: half walk speed

Now to your questions.

Q: Can you move by half speed while you are entangled by a spider web (as a move action)?
A: You can move at half "normal" speed i.e. half distance (10') in a full round or quarter distance (5') as a move action.

Q: Can you take a 5-foot step action?
A: No, you cannot take 5-foot step on difficult terrain and as I wrote consider entangle spell (unless you saved) and spider web as more difficult.

Q: Can you crawling/rolling 5 feet as a move action?
A: Crawling, yes, provoking AOO. Rolling, is it specified somewhere? What's the difference from crawling?

Opinions everyone?

[Lugar]

You have a very logical mind my good sir. So where does Universal Solvent fit in all this in your opinion? ;P

[Torin]

Crawling and rolling is the same. I don't know any rules or definition about rolling.
(But in normal life I use the verb crawling when you move as a worm and I use rolling if you roll from your stomach to your back while you are moving.)

[DM Surranó]

In this sense rolling is something like a tumbling maneuver but I'm glad we are on the same page.

[Toot]

Yeah I understood that you referred to the elementals as summoned nongood creatures. When I wrote the issue with Toot and the unicorn I was more than exhausted last night and realised the word "summoned" skipped my logic while I was under the hot shower. That leaves but one thing about unicorns; their picky taste when it comes to accepting riders... not a rules-thing, more like a role-thing (I believe it was kind of a rule in AD&D 2Ed at least) and surely a summoned unicorn has no way to say no to the summoner...

For the records. Summoned creatures are real as well. And so, Toot as a jermlaine can be summoned accidentally by anyone who knows how to summon a jermlaine. Probably from another plane.

In second edition I think they said only virgin females of pure heart could ride a unicorn but I didn't see that requirement in the Unicorn information.  Even so, I've always considered summoned creatures to be under a special charm effect.  This effect overrides the will of the creature and forces it to do things contrary to it's nature.  It's why they will fight to the death, which really isn't death for them.  They just vanish back to where they came from (likely) without knowledge of what just happened.  So in my opinion, the Unicorn wouldn't resist anyone from riding them as long as the rider wasn't an evil summoned creature.  Even then, the Unicorn would be resisting them, it would be the protection from evil spell the Unicorn cannot suppress pushing the summoned creature away.

As for someone summoning a Jermlaine, would that be a cantrip?     

Now to your questions.

Q: Can you move by half speed while you are entangled by a spider web (as a move action)?
A: You can move at half "normal" speed i.e. half distance (10') in a full round or quarter distance (5') as a move action.

Q: Can you take a 5-foot step action?
A: No, you cannot take 5-foot step on difficult terrain and as I wrote consider entangle spell (unless you saved)  and spider web as more difficult.

Q: Can you crawling/rolling 5 feet as a move action?
A: Crawling, yes, provoking AOO. Rolling, is it specified somewhere? What's the difference from crawling?

Opinions everyone?

<shutters> More web talk.  My real life group have been having the same conversations about webs and nets.  I think Nets are very under powered.  Maybe I'm being influenced by the movies but when someone gets hit by a net, you don't see them running around (even at half speed) or continue fighting with a measly -2 on attack rolls.  Nets seem more like a minor inconvenience.  Throw a net on a warrior and meh, now you have to hold the net string while I can still beat on you for a -2 to hit and -4 to dex.  It doesn't really even impede spell casting because what spellcaster doesn't have Concentration maxed out?  The concentration check should be based upon the attack roll.

But the "prevents movement if the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force" sounds interesting.  Wouldn't that mean you can't move through a web/net?  Because a web is either anchored to the walls or tethered to the spider (or the person throwing the net). 

As for moving 5' in difficult terrain and crawling while avoiding AoO: I read in a Sage advice (I read a lot of Sage Advice) that you can't move 5' because you move half speed.  So a 5' step would be a 2.5' step BUT if you have a high enough tumble skill and take the appropriate penalties for rough terrain (Light: +2DC; Heavy: +5DC) then take -10 on your skill check to move at full speed, you could make a 5' step.

I wish they would have made better rules for this stuff.  We shouldn't have to jump back and forth in rule books to figure out the rules.  They should be crystal clear.

[Lugar]

Maybe Jermlaine summon in swarms? I think normal nets are for low level players and that leaves room for DM imagination such as uber-nets in higher level encounters. And if your character is level 15 and a net stops them, something is wrong... The great thing about nets though is the touch attack, and the fact that they are so simple a mob of fishermen could really annoy you and your party with them, not a game winner but could be a game changer.

I agree about rules look-up in the middle of a table game for something that should be simple like rolling or crawling. I think it's written somewhere in the beginning of the Player's Handbook or DM's Guide that they are just "guidelines." Anything not specified is DM's judgement to me. Why bog a game down when a close approximation will do in the moment. PBP doesn't have that problem luckily

I agree with Torin, crawling and rolling should be effectively considered the same in game terms.

Nice role-playing Toot by the way. Found myself cracking up when it wiped it's butt off with the Unicorn's hair. Just so wrong.

[DM Surranó]

Re unicorn's pickiness: Yep, I referred to that part. Except the gender restriction. For me, a virgin was always a virgin. And no, I'm not a lobbyist on gender equality on any front.

Considering webs you can move with the web and that may have been improperly written above. And if the web clings to the floor you have to tear it up first... Add to this that a large spider can trap a huge creature with its web, means... say... 30-feet cube? so the net it spat more likely covers the entire room? So ambiguous...