[OOC] Sweet Spoilerousness

[DM Surranó]

OK so PfE effect is clarified (at least 3 of 5 players say the same). As a side note, the comical effect is not so dramatic since domination does not involve split brain (memory)

Technically nobody voted whether you prefer no retro or a bit of retro for party benefit so I will apply a third solution which also satisfies Lugar's request of "most fun" without retro.
For the current round I will treat the "attack the gnome" command as if NOT against Torin's nature and will issue a new command. We'll clarify the "is attacking Portho against Torin's nature" and generally "when does attacking an ally count as against nature" stuff.
Similarly, each and every future command can be vetoed and I will either accept or deny the claim immediately and we can discuss in details later, gradually building a guideline of what counts as "against nature". Let's hope that Portho as the party's arcane PC will choose Dominate Person soon

Based on this, I ask you, Torin, to post your turn accordingly. Remember "exclusively" and "to the best of your knowledge".

[DM Surranó]

PS. to reflect on Toot's curiousity; it was a combination of careful character build and extreme equipment. Basically the character made himself immune to all attacks of the golem (including having AC54 even while submerged in water so the golem's attack couldn't hit with a natural 20) while being able to damage the golem frequently. Truth be told he probably wouldn't have stood a chance against some stock level 7 characters, like a cleverly prepared wizard or a pure druid, and, especially after the battle, when all the single-use magic wore off, he would've been easy meat for practically anyone of level 7.

I also took some tidbits from the other clever party builds, hence the rusting grasp scroll that Torin found and... big spoiler... there's another rusting grasp spell the party could muster; you just haven't found it yet.... I never have imagined the clever idea of sinking the guardian but there is a secret objective related to this feat that will yield mooooore to the party on the long run. (yes: I made a secret objective with the condition "IF the party can achieve this, even though I have NO IDEA how to...")

[Lugar]

I like that. Secret objectives. By the way, how close are we to the surface? It must be getting near daylight by now

[Torin]

I found my Iron Golem killer character: (db means pieces I forgot to translate it and it is not so easy to replace it from my handy)

Iron Golem Killer Githzerai
=================
Race: Githzerai

BP:28

STR: 8
DEX: 22=16+6       10
CON: 16            10
INT: 6=8-2
WIS: 18=(15+1)+2    8
CHA: 8

Alignment: LN

Classes:
1. Monk
2. Ranger
3. Fighter
4. Cleric
5. Druid

HP: 42=5*3+8+1*5,5+3*4,5

BAB=2

FORT: 17=3+2+2+2+2+2+2+2 (Ability + 5 class + cloak + feat)
REFL: 12=6+2+2+0+0+0+2   (Ability + 5 class + cloak)
WILL: 12=4+2+0+0+2+2+2   (Ability + 5 class + cloak)

AC: 24=10+6+4+4 (dex+wis+psi armor)

Attack: 9=2+6+1 (BAB + DEX + Weapon)
Touch Attack: 8=2+6
Damage: 1d8

Feats:
======
1. Greater Fortitude
1. Stunning Fist (Monk)
2. Track (Ranger)
3. Weapon Finesse
3. Dodge

Skills:
=======
Tumble: 5
Escape Artist: 7

Potions:
========
 250gp Alter Self (CL:3  30min)
1200gp Barkskin +5 (CL:12 120min)
 900gp Shield Of Faith +5 (CL:18 18min)
 500gp 2db Reduce Person (CL: 5 5min)
 300gp 2db Enlarge Person (CL: 3 3min) (It doesn't matter, just for fun)
 250gp Shield (CL:5 5min)
 500gp Cat's Grace (CL:5 5min)
 500gp Owl's Wisdom (CL:5 5min)
 500gp Bear's Endurance (CL:5 5min)
 750gp Heroism (CL:3 30min)
 300gp Invisibility (CL:3 3min)
-------
5950gp

Scrolls:
========
 750gp 2db Water Breathing (CL:5 10hour)
1400gp 2db Freedom of Movement (CL:7 70min)
4200gp 6db Rusting Grasp (CL:7 7round)
------
6350gp

Items:
======
4000gp Cloak of Resistance +2 (It doesn't matter, just for fun)
2300gp +1 Rapier (It doesn't matter, just for fun)

Tactics:
========
He used the spells in this order (Scroll+Potion):

Water Breathing (CL:5 10hour)
Freedom of Movement (CL:7 70min)
Alter Self (CL:3  30min) -> Troglodyte (6NA)
Barskin +5 (CL:12 120min)
Shiled Of Faith +5 (CL:18 18min)
Heroism (CL:3 30min)
Reduce Person (CL: 5 5min)
Cat's Grace (CL:5 5min)
Owl's Wisdom (CL:5 5min)
Bear's Endurance (CL:5 5min)
Shield (CL:5 5min)
Invisibility (CL:3 3min) (Just for sure

Fighting Defensively (+3AC -4ATTACK)

He goes in and kills the golem


New Stats:
======
STR:  6
DEX: 28
CON: 20
INT:  6
WIS: 22
CHA:  8

HP: 52=42+5*2

FORT: 21=17+2+2 (18 is enough vs poisons) (Ability increase + Heroism)
REFL: 16=12+2+2 (Ability increase + Heroism)
WILL: 16=12+2+2 (Ability increase + Heroism)

AC: 54=24+6+5+5+(1+1)+4+2+2+1+3 (Alter Self + Barskin + Shield of Faith + Reduce Person + Shield + Cat + Owl + Dodge + Fight Def)

The golem attacks with +23. So it couldn't able to hit him (thanks for the optional rule (20=>30))

Attack: 11 = 9+2+(1+1)+2 - 4 (Heroism + Reduce + Ability increase - Fight Def)
Touch Attack: 10 = 8+2+(1+1)+2 - 4

He reads the  Rusting Grasp scrolls inside (7 rounds). He touch the golem many times.


Damage: 17,5 = 10,5 + 7

Golem HP: 129
7 * 17,5 = 122,25 damage => 2 scrolls is enough for him to kill the golem


I didn't calculate with their spells.

[Lugar]

I found my Iron Golem killer character: (db means pieces I forgot to translate it and it is not so easy to replace it from my handy)

Iron Golem Killer Githzerai
=================
Race: Githzerai

BP:28

STR: 8
DEX: 22=16+6       10
CON: 16            10
INT: 6=8-2
WIS: 18=(15+1)+2    8
CHA: 8

Alignment: LN

Classes:
1. Monk
2. Ranger
3. Fighter
4. Cleric
5. Druid

HP: 42=5*3+8+1*5,5+3*4,5

BAB=2

FORT: 17=3+2+2+2+2+2+2+2 (Ability + 5 class + cloak + feat)
REFL: 12=6+2+2+0+0+0+2   (Ability + 5 class + cloak)
WILL: 12=4+2+0+0+2+2+2   (Ability + 5 class + cloak)

AC: 24=10+6+4+4 (dex+wis+psi armor)

Attack: 9=2+6+1 (BAB + DEX + Weapon)
Touch Attack: 8=2+6
Damage: 1d8

Feats:
======
1. Greater Fortitude
1. Stunning Fist (Monk)
2. Track (Ranger)
3. Weapon Finesse
3. Dodge

Skills:
=======
Tumble: 5
Escape Artist: 7

Potions:
========
 250gp Alter Self (CL:3  30min)
1200gp Barkskin +5 (CL:12 120min)
 900gp Shield Of Faith +5 (CL:18 18min)
 500gp 2db Reduce Person (CL: 5 5min)
 300gp 2db Enlarge Person (CL: 3 3min) (It doesn't matter, just for fun)
 250gp Shield (CL:5 5min)
 500gp Cat's Grace (CL:5 5min)
 500gp Owl's Wisdom (CL:5 5min)
 500gp Bear's Endurance (CL:5 5min)
 750gp Heroism (CL:3 30min)
 300gp Invisibility (CL:3 3min)
-------
5950gp

Scrolls:
========
 750gp 2db Water Breathing (CL:5 10hour)
1400gp 2db Freedom of Movement (CL:7 70min)
4200gp 6db Rusting Grasp (CL:7 7round)
------
6350gp

Items:
======
4000gp Cloak of Resistance +2 (It doesn't matter, just for fun)
2300gp +1 Rapier (It doesn't matter, just for fun)

Tactics:
========
He used the spells in this order (Scroll+Potion):

Water Breathing (CL:5 10hour)
Freedom of Movement (CL:7 70min)
Alter Self (CL:3  30min) -> Troglodyte (6NA)
Barskin +5 (CL:12 120min)
Shiled Of Faith +5 (CL:18 18min)
Heroism (CL:3 30min)
Reduce Person (CL: 5 5min)
Cat's Grace (CL:5 5min)
Owl's Wisdom (CL:5 5min)
Bear's Endurance (CL:5 5min)
Shield (CL:5 5min)
Invisibility (CL:3 3min) (Just for sure

Fighting Defensively (+3AC -4ATTACK)

He goes in and kills the golem


New Stats:
======
STR:  6
DEX: 28
CON: 20
INT:  6
WIS: 22
CHA:  8

HP: 52=42+5*2

FORT: 21=17+2+2 (18 is enough vs poisons) (Ability increase + Heroism)
REFL: 16=12+2+2 (Ability increase + Heroism)
WILL: 16=12+2+2 (Ability increase + Heroism)

AC: 54=24+6+5+5+(1+1)+4+2+2+1+3 (Alter Self + Barskin + Shield of Faith + Reduce Person + Shield + Cat + Owl + Dodge + Fight Def)

The golem attacks with +23. So it couldn't able to hit him (thanks for the optional rule (20=>30))

Attack: 11 = 9+2+(1+1)+2 - 4 (Heroism + Reduce + Ability increase - Fight Def)
Touch Attack: 10 = 8+2+(1+1)+2 - 4

He reads the  Rusting Grasp scrolls inside (7 rounds). He touch the golem many times.


Damage: 17,5 = 10,5 + 7

Golem HP: 129
7 * 17,5 = 122,25 damage => 2 scrolls is enough for him to kill the golem


I didn't calculate with their spells.

I salute you sir! I just have one question. What was his name?

Reminds me of the time I tried to build a straight fighter that was virtually untrippable. This came about after I showed a friend how a Druid could simply summon dire wolves on any melee build and win without doing anything else they were level 10 characters.

[Torin]

To sum things up; we can go one of two ways and it is yours to decide.

A) I as a DM dictate how Dominate Person works, including PfE and make all the decisions alone what counts as "against one's nature"; in that case, a CG dwarf attacking a gnome having met a few days ago doesn't qualify.
In this case, there will be no retroactive gaming.

B) We make a common understanding of how the ability works, including PfE and what exactly counts as "against one's nature".
Once this baseline is established I will retroactively change just the tiniest bit (apparent to all players) and will send an additional private message to Torin on what is the exact command he's compelled to do.

Your votes and comments are welcome in the next 24 hours.

I missed your post below and thought that we are waiting for you to decide between A or B (see above).
Technically Torin is a NPC now, so it is good for me that you post in his name.

OK so PfE effect is clarified (at least 3 of 5 players say the same). As a side note, the comical effect is not so dramatic since domination does not involve split brain (memory)

Technically nobody voted whether you prefer no retro or a bit of retro for party benefit so I will apply a third solution which also satisfies Lugar's request of "most fun" without retro.
For the current round I will treat the "attack the gnome" command as if NOT against Torin's nature and will issue a new command. We'll clarify the "is attacking Portho against Torin's nature" and generally "when does attacking an ally count as against nature" stuff.
Similarly, each and every future command can be vetoed and I will either accept or deny the claim immediately and we can discuss in details later, gradually building a guideline of what counts as "against nature". Let's hope that Portho as the party's arcane PC will choose Dominate Person soon

Based on this, I ask you, Torin, to post your turn accordingly. Remember "exclusively" and "to the best of your knowledge".

[Torin]

I didn't play with the githzerai. So, he/she doesn't have a name just a title: The one-man commando

[DM Surranó]

I missed your post below and thought that we are waiting for you to decide between A or B (see above).
Technically Torin is a NPC now, so it is good for me that you post in his name.

I'd prefer if you played him and I moderated only. This way you can bring up clever ways of fulfilling the commands with least ill impact. If you don't feel like doing so I'll dmpc Torin until he's protected from the commands.