[OOC] Return to the Rusty Rat

[DM Surranó]

Hm, missed the PWT vs TS comparison. Seems like TS is superior to PWT because it does not distinguish between nonmagical and other ways of tracking...

But still, it's not what I debate. I think the intended meaning is that the druid is *capable of* doing so, i.e. there is *some* form of movement only druids can learn because they are so intimately familiar with flora and elements. But it doesn't necessarily break laws of physics, e.g. using soft shoes on hard rock or wading through water, and possibly some funny gait stop that after every step through dry leaves your wake undoes the leaves you disturbed. Ever read Herbert's Dune? The part when Paul realised how Fremen pass through sand without being noticed by the worm? Something like that but visual.

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[Toot]

Except if any of that were true the ability would have said, you need soft shoes, or you walk funny which alerts everyone to what you're doing.  There is not even a hint that someone might need to make a spot check to know when the ability is being used.   It just happens.

[DM Surranó]

Just like when a barbarian rages. It just happens. Yet, it's hard not to notice, I guess. Point is, it's not written whether it's obvious or not, nor whether you can step in a trackless way when you are crawling. Oh wait. You don't step at all while crawling.

Another possibility is to think about the full speed clause. Can Toot crawl trackless 40ft as a move action while crawling itself is something like 5ft as a full round action?

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[Toot]

Just like when a barbarian rages. It just happens. Yet, it's hard not to notice, I guess. Point is, it's not written whether it's obvious or not, nor whether you can step in a trackless way when you are crawling. Oh wait. You don't step at all while crawling.

With that logic, when wizards cast Expeditious retreat they are only allowed to use it when running away...    Also there is a big difference between a Rage and a Step.  And no one said Trackless step or PWT was silent.  At least I didn't.  But we have Portho's spell to take care of noise.

Another possibility is to think about the full speed clause. Can Toot crawl trackless 40ft as a move action while crawling itself is something like 5ft as a full round action?

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The full speed clause?  First off that's for Woodland Stride not PWT or TS.  Second, I'm pretty sure RAI that normal speed means whatever speed the Druid happens to be moving.  Normal speed as opposed to difficult terrain speed (half movement). The idea that if a druid decided to walk half speed that suddenly he would lose his Woodland stride and starts getting slapped in the face by branches does not make any sense.  Would he also lose his woodland stride if he Wildshaped into something that doesn't move 40' because 40' is Toot's "normal speed?" 

As for the crawling, it's a move action to crawl 5' so Toot could move 10' a round.  But as I said, Toot would squat and move toward the Elk.  When I said Toot was going crawling or if that was a problem he would squat I thought that would be half move but I was mistaken. 

As I keep saying, this is your game so you have the final decision.

[Torin]

Exp. Retreat: I must to explained it to many DMs and if I could remember correctly DM Surrano is one of them.

I found an example char in an article which explains the revised polymorphing.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x.../20060523a

The druid there preservs her TS ability in polymorphed form.

[DM Surranó]

You guys walk along the synthetic line. This is Ex and all Ex work this way... There are no restrictions mentioned therefore it is universal... etc.
I will fall back to good old 2Ed practice here, mentioned by... Merri maybe?... and use common sense.
My common sense says that these abilities are excellent examples of what the character is able to by some means.
Since it's not a showstopper (and I can't really imagine this being an advantage or disadvantage at any point) I don't want to break the momentum of the game on wording and I don't care (rule-wise) whether the druid is crawling, squatting, scurrying on all fours, etc.
Silly may be OK. But when it becomes stupid I will interfere.

I really cannot bring any better example than what I already did by mentioning how careful steps may preserve grass unbroken and how I cannot imagine such a careful crawl but something else popped into my mind. Does the druid retain this ability if loses all limbs? Just theoretically since this game doesn't involve any sharpness effects... yet (maybe I should flesh out that part in chapter three... or five). Or less drastically speaking, assuming your character has an Ex climb ability claiming that you can move your hustle speed on any surface without a climb check. Does that mean that you can climb any surface without the use of hands while wearing full plate (read: rigid boots)? This is just another hypothesis and as I mentioned above, I will use common sense to see if something is truly senseless.

[Merrinna Starsong]

Well it is called 'Trackless Step,' not trackless crawl.

[Toot]

Well it is called 'Trackless Step,' not trackless crawl.  

Yes it is called 'Trackless STEP' so I guess that means Druids are only allowed to take a 5' step when using the power.    It's also not called "Trackless Move at Full Speed," either.

[Portho Nihilbuck]

I have come to a decision. The relentless rules-lawyering, and repeated 'nerfing' of my, and other player's, abilities, has completely sapped me of any enjoyment of this game. I do not play these games to have to constantly argue whether a certain spell or ability works as intended. Common sense should prevail, and that common sense should dictate that characters would take advantage of their abilities, and know in advance their ability's limitations. Example if stepping on twigs still made noise with sculpt sound common sense dictates that characters would know that and exercise caution. If a druid's abilities for trackless step and woodland stride still work when wildshaped, then common sense dictates they do not require 'soft soled shoes' or other accessories.

So far I am just thankful that Portho has never been in position to try casting Major Image. The resulting argument would probably tie up the OoC chat for a month.

This decision is not based solely on this instance, but rather has been a long time coming. I kept on, hoping for things to improve, but they have not, so I ave decided to respectfully bow out. At least without my abilities being a source of argument it may make the game run smoother and more enjoyably for others.

I want to thank all of you for welcoming me into this game, but I find the game style simply not to my liking, so must bow out.

[DM Surranó]

Discussed with Portho's player and I will DMPC the bard until the first IC possibility to retire him. You are always free to recommend actions and I will take those actions whenever that makes some sense. Otherwise, the character will be pretty much in the background in a supporting role.