[OOC] Return to the Rusty Rat

[Toot]

Who has ever said that it would be a free action? All the item states is:

the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard

Is pulling a wand from a quiver a free action? Drawing ammunition for use with a range weapon, yes. But it's about the ammo and not about the container, and if we go nitpicking, you don't draw a wand "for use with a ranged weapon". Well, barring true strike or bless weapon etc, if anyone would think that's what this phrase means.
Same goes for weapons (like, bows or staves) from QoE. Pulling a sword from a scabbard is normally a move action. So is pulling a weapon from QoE.

A wand has a lot more in common with an arrow than a sword.  So while the scabbard argument could work for Staves and Bows it wouldn't make much sense for wands.  I also am not sure why, "you don't draw a wand" is an argument.  You draw a sword from a scabbard so why can't you draw a wand from a quiver?  Drawing means: extract (an object or liquid) from a container or receptacle. Which is what you do when you extract a wand from its container, right?  When the QoE produces an arrow the user can do anything with it.  If he wants he could summon the arrow then stab someone with it; or wave it around; or point at someone.  The QoE doesn't care what you do with the arrow. 

But at the end of the day it's up to you.

[Lugar]

I think if someone were dumb enough to shoot their wand of true strike, as if an arrow, with their bow, it should automatically hit and do 1d4 damage! The Quiver of Elhonna is nice because of the weightless storage, and I can see how someone could misconstrue the phrase to mean it's a free action. Lord knows how many things I've mis-read.

With the Quickdraw feat it becomes a free action! Not such a dumb feat now is it! Is it! ;P

[Toot]

With a regular quiver you draw arrows as a free action.  If you can't draw arrows from the QoE as a free action then its a really crappy item.  I believe RAI is you can use the QoE just like a regular quiver.

[Lugar]

You are correct, It's a quiver, you can still draw "ammunition" as a free action from the QoE, just can't draw all the big fancy stuff from it as a free action. No matter what you stuff in it, it still weighs the same.

I played with a guy that wanted an elf archer build. He went fighter for all the feats. First thing he bought was a QoE, then began enchanting multiple bows, one with the flaming property, one with ice etc. Then he stuffed them in the QoE, along with a sword (I allowed it.) and filled the other compartments with various arrows. He had so many arrows in his QoE is was mind numbing. It's a really good magic item. I used to think archery sucked in DnD 3.5 and then I learned from the master. Gosh x3 crits suck, from a DM's perspective, when your players are shooting 1d8+10+1d6 from 100' away at the big bad guy that hasn't even delivered it's monologue...

[DM Surranó]

Okay, then here's the nitpicking part.

1. A wand has a lot more in common with an arrow than a sword. 
2. I also am not sure why, "you don't draw a wand" is an argument. 
3. When the QoE produces an arrow the user can do anything with it. 
4. The QoE doesn't care what you do with the arrow. 

1. True, they are "roughly the same size and shape". Except fletching and size. So if we go nitpicking then no, a 6 to 12 inches wand won't fit into a QoE, since arrows are some 30 inches long and have fletching.
2. It's because he other part of the sentence is the argument. "for use with a ranged weapon".
3. Correct, it produced the arrow but it is not producing the arrow but drawing the arrow that is an action.
4. Correct, but what you actually do determines the time needed. PHB specifically states it is free action "for use with a ranged weapon".

With the Quickdraw feat it becomes a free action!

Correct.

With a regular quiver you draw arrows as a free action.  If you can't draw arrows from the QoE as a free action then its a really crappy item.  I believe RAI is you can use the QoE just like a regular quiver.

Correct and RAI it is not a free action to draw any item from any compartment. Only ammunition for use with a ranged weapon. Just like a regular quiver.

To summarise, arrows are longer, have fletching, and you have a specific light grip on them when nocking. Your movement is in sync with the other hand holding the bow. We can put it this way: drawing ammunition from a container (not only QoE) is a free action as part of the action of loading your projectile weapon. (which is free action for bows, move or full round for others)

[Toot]

The first compartment holds objects that are the same general size and shap.  Not the exact size and shape.

To say that it's is some how easier for the QoE to draw an arrow which is generally the same size and shape as a wand because you happen to be holding a bow in your other hand doesn't make a lot of sense especially when it says you can draw any item inside as easily as a regular quiver or a scabbard.  If drawing a wand is like drawing a sword from a scabbard then you should be able to draw a wand as part of a move action as long as you have a +1 attack bonus just like any other weapon you would pull from a scabbard.

[Silent Giant]

My opinion:
From quiver you don't draw one specific arrow but an arrow. If you want to draw a wand randomly from quiver and use it immediately with the same movement why not But if you want to use (search/look) one specific wand it is not a free action.

[DM Surranó]

Yes: drawing a wand is like drawing a sword. It's a move action in itself; OR a free action if done as part of your move; OR a free action if you have quick draw.

Now I lean towards claiming that "general size" is a numeric restriction, say, 2/3 to 4/3 of the average size. Why? If a wand (6-12") is the same general size as an arrow (24" to 33" or 2 to 5 times longer) then an arrow is the same general size as a quarterstaff or a pike (66" to 132") and you can argue that you could store those in the arrow compartment. So
- Average arrow is 28.5" so items 19" to 38" fit
- Average javelin is about 3 to 4 feet so items 2'4" to 4'8" fit.
- Average staff or spear is about 6 to 8 feet so items about 4'8" to 9'4" fit.

Figures above are for medium characters. Since putting items of various sizes may conflict with the "same general size" criteria I'd say that QoE does not resize so you downscale everything. E.g. Portho's javelin or Toot's staff would go into the armor compartment of Lugar's QoE and Lugar's arrow would go into the javelin compartment of Portho's QoE or the staff compartment of Toot's QoE.

Another question; do wands resize?
- If they don't then they fit in Toot's QoE but the 12" ones must be handled two-handed by Toot. (here we can assume that Toot picked the shortest ones (6" in the shop) so he can handle his own one-handed.
- If they do then they don't fit in anybody's QoE.

[Toot]

Now I lean towards claiming that "general size" is a numeric restriction, say, 2/3 to 4/3 of the average size. Why? If a wand (6-12") is the same general size as an arrow (24" to 33" or 2 to 5 times longer) then an arrow is the same general size as a quarterstaff or a pike (66" to 132") and you can argue that you could store those in the arrow compartment. So
- Average arrow is 28.5" so items 19" to 38" fit
- Average javelin is about 3 to 4 feet so items 2'4" to 4'8" fit.
- Average staff or spear is about 6 to 8 feet so items about 4'8" to 9'4" fit.

While Googling QoE, I have yet to see anyone disagree that wands fit in the smallest compartment.

Another question; do wands resize? 
- If they don't then they fit in Toot's QoE but the 12" ones must be handled two-handed by Toot. (here we can assume that Toot picked the shortest ones (6" in the shop) so he can handle his own one-handed.
- If they do then they don't fit in anybody's QoE.

I keep having to defend the rule but...

Size And Magic Items
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items.

---

Armor and Weapon Sizes

Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01-30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31-90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91-100).

I would argue that as the rules state, wands and QoE do resize because they are not arms and armor.  No other magic items suggest or even hint that they would come in a different size.  There are a couple of cases like the Mattock of the Titans and the Maul of the Titans that appear in the wondrous item section that I don't believe resize because they are weapons.  And if the QoE did have some rule where QoE of different sizes stored items differently, they would have said so because it would have mattered for Small characters whose weapons are of different size than medium weapons.  

We also spoke about this because of Toot's Rod of Extension when Toot was created and it was decided that Rods were not going to hinder Toot so why would wands?

In any case, deciding what to do with the QoE in this game is important because it's going to come up.  So is it a move, standard or Full round action?  Does it provoke AoO?  Personally, I think I'm just going to stick my wands into my HHH.  In the Haversack the item you want is always on top and it specifically says it's a move action that does not provoke AoO.

[Portho Nihilbuck]

Rememberb QoE is an extra-dimensional space. Regardless of what the quiver on the outside does, the extradimensional space would not itself resize.