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[OOC] Sweet Spoilerousness
#1
Let's play adults. I guess we are all seasoned veterans so nobody would be surprised if I said that the effect on Torin was...

... a Dominate Person.
I can't say I worded the command ambiguously by accident; both the DM and the cloaked figure are pretty high on Int Wink but that said I'm not convinced that exact wording has a role here.
The spell description says,

Dominate Person Wrote:You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind.

If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” and “Stand still.”

While lacking common language limiting the capabilities of the spell suggests (on the first read) that you should word the command it doesn't say anything about you having to word the command exactly. On the contrary, it allows "some" commands without actual words.

Also it doesn't say you learn what language(s) the target understands so how do you choose a language for the commands? I'm inclined to say you don't. You have a telepathic link which kind of makes the creature understand your thoughts not your words. A similar stuff goes to companions and familiars unless I'm mistaken.
The command may have had some nonverbal indicators as well, like the figure's eyes flutter for a moment from Torin to... the... gnome... *cough*.

Again, I'm being ambiguous on purpose and this is because I'd like to see the player explain how Torin interpreted the command without influencing him.


Concerning what Torin should and should not do, regardless of interpretation:

Quote:continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival
This doesn't mean he should abort the spell  but he should do his best to apply all his power (including spells already in place; the spell currently being cast; and all other std and move actions) to carry out the command. Thus, bisons in his control should do accordingly. Spiritual weapon in his control should do accordingly. And if it means he has to step back to give way to one of the bisons I'd say he's also obliged to do so (as long as it doesn't put him to imminent danger) and choose follow-up actions that take this into consideration (e.g. apply a ranged spell or ranged attack).

Finally, there's the issue of PfE warding against control. What do you think qualifies as control? Giving a new command? Or exercising the daily control? Or simply the spell should be suppressed completely while target is under protection, thus not obliged to do his best to "kill the gnome"?

What do all of you think?
Remember to respond here and omit spoilers IC or in the Tavern!
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#2
Wow, very clever... 18 INT indeed...

I agree with your interpretation on telepathic commands, it also states one can sense through the recipient of the spell.

PfE will not dispell the dominate person but does prevent further commands... I do think Torin gains a +2 to his Will save from PfE and another +2 to resist an act that goes against his nature.

I think Portho should have the chance to use countersong to give Torin another save on his turn... Because countersong sucks as an ability.
Everyone gets a sense motive check based upon the vocal command, to recognize the change in behavior. Most won't realize until he's attacked I think.

The Bison will have to kill the skeletons or anyone in the way of their target, either Portho or Toot. Torin might split his attacks, he also has to use an action to change his summoned entities commands, correct?

Isn't Toot the greater threat? SNA and PfE?

Lugar has a hat of disguise... If he looked liked Mr. Cloaked Figure could he command Torin or the skeletons??? If Toot no longer looked like a gnome, would he still be attacked, or Portho for that matter?

Could a bluff by Portho, "I'm not a gnome I'm a Sprite!" Trick Torin enough not to attack? Lol
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#3
My two cents...  

Since it is Dominate Person and not Charm person, I think Torin would be dominated to attack the Gnome that the caster had in mind.  Charm and suggestion gives a lot more wiggle room but dominate takes complete control.  If Portho was the intended target then that is who Torin should attack.  

Also, if the spell caster hasn't seen Toot (since I believe I said I was hiding behind something bigger than him)...


Quote:[2nd round] If They are pulled up this round, Toot will step back to hide behind the group to assess the situation while untying the rope from Boo's saddle.

Then the spellcaster might not even know what race Toot is let alone who the hell is casting the SNA because it's all being done from hiding behind larger creatures.  And I believe with Dominate, the spell is more about what the caster intended and if in the caster's mind, Portho was the target then that's all that matters.

As for the circle against evil, I think as soon as Torin steps into the circle the control is suppressed.


Quote:Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature.

Dominate Person just doesn't exert mental control only when the caster tells him what to do.  It's an ongoing compulsion that the spell clearly says it blocks.  In fact the spell even mentions Dominate Person as an example of a spell it blocks.
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#4
Lots of things already...

Int 18: you mean the dm or the baddie? Smile

Countersong won't work since it's mental not audible. Language dependent is obscure here.

Pfe itself doesn't allow a new attack roll by itself, leaving "against his nature" the last straw. In my interpretation your nature is not about your personal acquaintance more like inherent subconscious, dogma and stuff. Just how much against the nature of a deep dwarf cleric of Lirr (cg) is to attack a forest gnome? (Adult out kid) I'd say kissing a half-orc would be worse... The villain is certainly aware of what to expect from his own power so he wouldn't make such mistake if he knew the dwarf (and a cleric at that) would shrug off domain because of an ill command.

The bisons; well they don't have to kill those in the way if they can get to the target at the cost of an AOO or three. The warrior was lame to go there but it's just proper for its singlemindedness (is that a word?)

Toot being the greater threat... this guy is not straightforward stupid, ok? Hint: greater threat than whom?

Lugar acting as Cloak: he can't be sure of either but the player knows that the illusion doesn't grant telepathic stuff. Actually he didn't even have to speak the command, what's more the command may be anything else I wrote to Torin privately B-)

Same goes for Toot changing guise.

Portho's bluff I'd an idea I like but similarly, you can't fool a telepathic bond.

Which gnome: I agree that whichever Cloak had in mind.

Hide: I don't have his sheet in front of me but the guy has ridiculous senses, his listen and spot are likely higher than Toot's hide or ability to cast in a hushed voice. That said, I didn't forget that he hid.

Pfe: note that the effect of pfe on DP is described in the latter; the unclear part is what counts as control. I found only one relevant discussion where consensus was that "old" commands remain in effect, even during pfe but honestly I'm not convinced. I agree that the compulsion is in place continuously but is it really control?... So poorly defined...

A different aspect that may shed some light: what happens if the caster gets unconscious? Broken? Suppressed until regains consciousness? Or stays in place? (Considering that the average human caster has to sleep between two days of control I can imagine..)
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#5
(11-09-2016, 07:42 AM)DM Surranó Wrote: Pfe: note that the effect of pfe on DP is described in the latter; the unclear part is what counts as control. I found only one relevant discussion where consensus was that "old" commands remain in effect, even during pfe but honestly I'm not convinced. I agree that the compulsion is in place continuously but is it really control?... So poorly defined...

A different aspect that may shed some light: what happens if the caster gets unconscious? Broken? Suppressed until regains consciousness? Or stays in place? (Considering that the average human caster has to sleep between two days of control I can imagine..)

DP may be poorly defined but it is specifically mentioned in the Protection from Evil spell as an effect that is suppressed by the spell.

As for what happens if the caster goes unconscious, I believe it's written somewhere that only spells that are concentration are dispelled.  I know that's how I've always judged such situations.  Since it's 1 day per level (nasty spell), Torin is screwed unless someone casts a PfE on him which will only last for as long as the PfE's duration or a successful dispel magic.
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#6
[OoC: Oh and Toot calls dibs on Portho's cloak!!  What?  Too soon?  Huh  Tongue  Hey, he's been my friend IRL for over 20 years.  I'm allowed to tease!  Big Grin  ]
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#7
(11-09-2016, 08:12 AM)Toot Wrote: [OoC: Oh and Toot calls dibs on Portho's cloak!!  What?  Too soon?  Huh  Tongue  Hey, he's been my friend IRL for over 20 years.  I'm allowed to tease!  Big Grin  ]


That's so messed up... You're not going to reincarnate him as a Jermelaine?
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#8
OMG!  What sweet sweet revenge!  Can I, DM? Can I, PLEASE reincarnate Portho as a Jermlaine??   Big Grin
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#9
Don't you need some leftover at least to reincarnate someone? If the next command would be "eat him"...

Sent from my ALE-L21 using Tapatalk
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#10
Can I reincarnate what comes out the other end?  It's still him, sort of....  Confused Tongue
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