[OOC] Return to the Rusty Rat

[DM Surranó]

Torin can summon monsters with N, NG, LN or CG alignment

I can't find any reference to this list of alignments. Considering Torin's alignment, CN makes more sense than LN so did you mean "N, CN, NG, CG" instead?

With Torin's SuMo IV he's able to summon a single mephit, 1d3 earth elementals or 1d3 celestial dire badgers. It's not something that would help in a fight but it is perfect to reduce the spellcasting burden of the tiny druid.

[Toot]

Torin can summon monsters with N, NG, LN or CG alignment

I can't find any reference to this list of alignments. Considering Torin's alignment, CN makes more sense than LN so did you mean "N, CN, NG, CG" instead?

With Torin's SuMo IV he's able to summon a single mephit, 1d3 earth elementals or 1d3 celestial dire badgers. It's not something that would help in a fight but it is perfect to reduce the spellcasting burden of the tiny druid.

Yeah!  Toot's Burdened!! 

From the SRD:  A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

This is why being neutral (like Toot) is the best alignment.  You aren't affected by any of the Protection from Evil/Good/Law/Chaos and you can summon whatever you'd like.    It seems only Divine casters have to worry about the alignment of the summoned creature.  Arcane casters can summon whatever they want but if they are good they have to be careful of how often they summon evil creatures and for what purpose.  I assume the same goes for evil casters summoning good creatures but I'm not sure why.  Wouldn't summoning a Unicorn to kill some good creatures be an especially evil act?

One question I have is, if a summoning spell says you can summon a fiendish dire badger will you let a good cleric summon a celestial dire badger instead?

[DM Surranó]

Such questions can be decided on a case-by-case basis. It sounds harmless from game balance point of view but may be against the role. Consider a good cleric making a pact with a demonic demigod, maybe as a last resort for the greater benefit of good (in his own perspective at least; i.e. forced to take the pledge to save a village from destruction; or simply tricked into accepting a quest spell, etc.) that grants the power to summon fiendish creatures. Now, the demon would probably not serve the prayer if it were not to further his own cause.

Similar questions include whether a generic caster could learn a new evocation spell with a different element, e.g. frost ball or shock ball instead of fireball-- definitely as two new spells for purposes of spells known or spells scribed into spellbook. We can treat them as part of character's background that those are the self-developed "signature" spells of the character but using this uncontrolled may lead to a much wider arsenal of divine spells since divine casters know all the spells granted by the deity; not only a small set of selected once. (as opposed to arcane; even wizards are limited by the number of spellbooks they can carry and the funds sacrificed to buy new scrolls etc; but some spells may be particularly difficult to find)

So I encourage bringing up such questions in-situ and we can discuss there.

[Portho Nihilbuck]

Portho guesses (and the others who've seen it in its full length confirm) that the guardian is some 12 to 15 feet high and has a reach of 10 feet. Plus, if water drains down to that hole buoyancy may help in jumping a little...

[ooC or water may hinder it if it solid metal not hollow.   then again if hollow it just might float lol]

[Toot]

I was just curious about changing the templates from Fiendish to Celestial because the Summon Monster tables heavily lean toward Evil creatures.  I broke the lists into Evil; Neutral; Good; Torin.

SM1: Evil 8; Neutral 0; Good 6; Torin 4
SM2: Evil 8; Neutral 0; Good 4; Torin 3
SM3: Evil 11; Neutral 1; Good 4; Torin 4
SM4: Evil 8; Neutral 1; Good 4; Torin 3
SM5: Evil 11; Neutral 1; Good 5; Torin 4
SM6: Evil 7; Neutral 3; Good 4; Torin 6
SM7: Evil 6; Neutral 2; Good 4; Torin 5
SM8: Evil 7; Neutral 1; Good 4; Torin 4
SM9: Evil 7; Neutral 1; Good 3; Torin 3

As you can see, even if you add up all the Good and Neutral creatures on each list they don't equal the number of evil creatures.  This gives characters who can summon evil creatures a major advantage!  When all the Lawful and Evil creatures are removed from the list it doesn't leave much for for Torin to summon.

[DM Surranó]

[ooC or water may hinder it if it solid metal not hollow.   then again if hollow it just might float lol]

Yes it is solid but what I meant is that drag is less than lift since the shape is fairly streamline. At least when it comes to moving up while standing upright, is that correct?. Walking underwater or even crawling would impose drag (walking imposing a lot more than crawling) but little or no lift.

[Torin]

Yes. CN is the correct.

@DM: Just take a look to SM 1-9 in PF. Maybe we should use it as a reference.

[DM Surranó]

what I meant is that drag is less than lift since the shape is fairly streamline. At least when it comes to moving up while standing upright, is that correct?. Walking underwater or even crawling would impose drag (walking imposing a lot more than crawling) but little or no lift.

Consulted with a physiotherapist with major in hydrotherapy (my wife ) and...
(I don't feel like this information would be certain for any of the characters hence spoilerizing.)

... she explained that things are way more complex. Together we got to the conclusion that even if it would be easier to jump in water than in dry land the way to do so is nontrivial: if you use the same series of movements to crouch, get momentum by swinging your arms, etc then drag and turbulence work way more against you. Hence, there's no way a construct would make it perfectly the first time unless specifically programmed for aquatic environment. And, considering that (most?) constructs can't learn (not even from their own mistakes)...

So this is how I will handle this and will dish out the FULL experience value if you overcome this "obstacle" because I want to reward smart play.

[DM Surranó]

Yes. CN is the correct.

@DM: Just take a look to SM 1-9 in PF. Maybe we should use it as a reference.

Thanks for alignment confirmation.
As for tables; I'm happy with the 3.5 tables. Do you mean the asterisk meaning matching alignment, i.e. you could summon a celestial dire wolf or 1d3 celestial monstrous centipedes?

[Torin]

Thanks for alignment confirmation.
As for tables; I'm happy with the 3.5 tables. Do you mean the asterisk meaning matching alignment, i.e. you could summon a celestial dire wolf or 1d3 celestial monstrous centipedes?

Yes, I mean that animals are "alignmentless" in PF: their alignment depends on the caster alignment. So a good caster can summon a celestial shark. (There is no celestial animal on SM 2-4 lists in D&D.)